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KPU -- zinc/coper


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in doing some research with homeopathy - i've come across some references to copper - which i had asked recently about it's relation to zinc and kpu -- (thanks LLM).

today i found this bizarre reference on the website for Wilson's disease. how bizarre is this??!!!

 

How/where is the brain affected by copper accumulation?

Generally, the brain is affected symmetrically with excess copper deposition, although symptoms can be worse on one side of the body than another. This may have to do with factors of asymmetric neurologic development, such as being right or left-handed. The copper is often seen most prominently in the basal ganglia, the area deep within the brain that coordinates movements. The face of the giant panda sign refers to a characteristic appearance of the basal ganglia in advanced Wilson's disease. This is a description of the appearance of the basal ganglia wherein one can get an impressionists image of the face of a giant panda. Fred Askari, M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor Director, Wilson's Disease Center of Excellence Clinic at the University of Michigan

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You know, sometimes it's these weird, serendipitous connections that tell you you're on to something important for your own situation. Even tho this has nothing to do with PANDAS, it's like some cosmic tap on the shoulder saying "Ahem, Smarty? Paying attention to this? You may want to..."

 

I hope it leads you to some really helpful discoveries for your son!

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more on my life in the bizarro world -- last night i was flipping channels, which i rarely even do, and caught the second half of a House episode in which the woman is hospitalized with a tumor and has schizophrenia onset in her 30s --- can you believe?! -- Wilson's disease. is the next thing a copper lightening bolt to hit me? i don't believe ds to have this disorder but am interested in the copper/zinc issue.

 

if you are treating KPU -- is the focus on the zinc deficiency or the copper accumulation? they kind of go hand in hand, but is it believed to be one or the other to cause the troubles? the theory is that this is a type of detox that becomes hindered either genetically or infection induced and then interrrupts the proper handling of riding the body of infection? is that correct? so this is a type of detox you are treating while also treating infection?

is there another way to test KPU than pee test? is there a focus on the liver with this or just the basic that the liver is a detoxing organ?

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Ok, sounds like a cosmic "ahem" to me :D

 

I don't know of any way to check for KPU except the pee test.

 

I've not looked at KPU with the focus you've asked about, in terms of a copper problem or a lover problem. But that doesn't mean those things aren't factors.

 

The way I see KPU is that there's a zinc/B6 deficiency that hampers the body's ability to fight infection. Then if you get a chronic infection, the bacteria hoards metals (mercury, lead et al) (or a chronic virus will hoard aluminum and iron). Copper may also accumulate due to the lack of zinc to balance it (tho I suppose it's possible to have enough copper intake that you may not see this - for some reason, my DS has low copper even prior to taking Core). So you could see symptoms of 1. zinc deficiency/immune dysfunction 2. heavy metals problems 3. high copper problems 4. liver/toxin problems trying to detox this stuff or any or all of the above.

 

When you add the zinc/B6 et al for KPU, you re-start a sluggish or inactive immune system and you also re-boot the trans-sulfuration pathway, which is the body's detox engine. So the body often soaks the zinc up like a thirsty sponge for maybe 4-6 weeks. Then it reaches a satiation point where things are working again. The now well-equipped immune system might 1. start fighting infection better, causing a herx. 2. The better functioning detox system could start doing a better job of eliminating metals, causing a herx-like phase. 3. The rising levels of zinc could cause the body to start naturally chelating high copper, causing a herx-like phase. 4. During all of this, liver support would certainly be a good thing, as would daily BMs.

 

So I guess how KPU treatment effects you has a lot to do with how much of a problem any of these things are for the body and how long the blockage has been in place. Your focus, I think, will be on whatever aspect has been the biggest insult. For DS, it was mercury and detox. For DD it seems to be copper chelation. I say this because DS's brain fog was an issue @ weeks 4-7 and for DD, she shows a lot of "high copper/bipolar mood swings" but no brain fog. They have different issues even tho they have the same KPU label. It's common to have issues around weeks 4-6 and also when you increase dosage of whatever KPU supplements you're using. Sometimes you can push thru it, sometimes it helps to back down on dose and then build up once things stabilize again.

 

Not sure if or how any of this will help your DS. But it seems like someone or something really wants to get your attention. Worst case, you're out $70 and get some pee on your hands. Best case, you uncover a missing puzzle piece! Just don't let any friends or family help themselves to the fridge for the 24 hrs you have a pee container wrapped in aluminum foil sitting next to the milk.

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S&S - we test copper, magnesium, calcium, D periodically, usually when we do CBCs, which is every 2-4 months. Not part of the CBC, we just do it while we're doing a draw for the CBC. Not sure this is the only or even most accurate way to test. For example, when we test zinc this way, it looks normal. Yet the kids have KPU, so there's actually a deficiency not showing up with a regular blood test. So maybe the same could be true for the other things we're testing. But...copper has shown consistently high for DD this way, tho it has started to drop since starting Core. Ironically, I have to supplement copper for DS, since he started low and the Core makes it drop even more.

 

I also supplement magnesium, so we also check calcium, which was high but has recently started to slip and I'll have to find a good cal/mag instead.

 

Phila - you get two results - an HPL measurement and a pyrole measurement. Don't recall the HPL info - LLMD didn't pay much attention to it. The pyrole number is one number. DS was 19.6 and DD was 13.7 (I think). Below 10 is negative, between 10-20 is borderline and above 20 is positive. Pyroles are byproducts of heme (blood) synthesis. They don't have a known purpose. But they bind to zinc. If you have a defect in heme synthesis, you produce a lot of pyroles, which bind to your zinc and cause you to pee out the pyrole/zinc compound before your body can utilize the zinc. That's why a blood test can show normal zinc levels in the plasma, outside the cell. But inside the cell can be deficient because the zinc isn't bioavailable.

 

If you're looking for a measurement of various vitamin/mineral levels, then you can do a standard blood panel (thru Quest et al) or a specialty workup from labs like great Plains, Doctor's Data?, Genova, etc. Genova has one for @ $170 but that's not in our budget at the moment. I haven't done much research to know how reliable or better one type of lab test is over another.

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One more question- did you collect Sat to Sun and ship out on Monday? store in fridge until Monday? thx [memory is failing me :wacko: )

It was summer, so it was all one long weekend.

If you collect on Sat into Sun morning, then freeze from Sun until you drop it off at Fed Ex on Monday

If you collect Sun into Mon a.m. then freeze until Mon afternoon and then drop it off at fed Ex.

It needs to be frozen for at least a few hours (at least until slushy) but the lab said it was also ok to freeze for a day or two. So either way works. Do whichever day works best in your schedule.

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I'm really screwing up these days. All set to do the urine culture this Saturday: stopped multi-vit (check), called about shipping (check), got urine container (check). I just realized my daughter's been drinking vitiman water all week. (sigh)

 

Should I hold off until the following weekend?

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I'm really screwing up these days. All set to do the urine culture this Saturday: stopped multi-vit (check), called about shipping (check), got urine container (check). I just realized my daughter's been drinking vitiman water all week. (sigh)

 

Should I hold off until the following weekend?

 

My thoughts are to wait. I think this test is ver sensitive and can still come back normal even if you do everything right. I think you will quesiton the test results if you don't wait. What do you think?

 

Susan

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If you stopped the vitamin water last night and did the test Sunday, you'd have 3 days w/o vitamins. Would that be enough or would you wonder about the results if they came back negative? If DD has to go another week w/o vitamins/supplements, is that ok? I think you have to trust your gut on this, or else call the lab for their opinion. I felt bad for calling them several times, but now, 6 months later, who cares what they thought of me? Call as often as you need to.

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Arrgh I'm so mad at myself. I called and was told to wait another week, especially since the brand she was drinking included zinc & B6.

 

I do hate having her off vitamin supplements for two weeks. She is showing signs of a sinus/ear problem. Her brother came home from college sick and was just diagnosed with ammonia. That's Mycoplasma P, right? Meanwhile, I've been stuck inside since Monday because dd won't leave the house and hubby is out of town. I'm out of coffee!! Ok - sorry for the pity party.

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