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Methylation


LNN
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So I've gotten myself into a conversation over on the Pandas board about methylation http://www.latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15205 that I think applies to at least Suzan and ChristianMom and others who are dealing with KPU and/or problems with detox or severe herxing.

 

I don't want to bombard the Pandas people with lyme references, but if any of you want to peak over there or help me understand methylation, I'd welcome more brain cells to the project. I so wish I had a brain for chemistry...but I was toward the back of the line when that talent was handed out.

 

Anyway, it's feeling like methylation is so important to things like herxing and detox and mold and the links DUT has posted over there have been really helpful. In light of the recent lyme sensitivities over there, I want to be respectful of the Pandas viewpoint and don't want to hijack their thread. But thought maybe some of you could read the thread and then maybe come back here so we could talk about how it might apply in lymeland.

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LLM, I seriously want to understand this more. I will read up on the rest that is new over there tonight. I'm not sure my lyme brain can wrap my hands around it all. But the benadryl, the allergies, the deficiencies, the food intolerances, it's peaked my interest for sure.

 

Very interesting to me on this article about pyrrole and Omega 3. dd8 gets worse with any fish oil. I'll have to read this article a few times but this is one of the easy ones to read!

 

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshMP.htm

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I don't really have any comments to make except that I did find a Labcorp test for histamine level:

histamine determination, whole blood

 

My son has all the symptoms for low histamine (even the artistic/music one), so I am curious to have this test run. The interesting link is that my son has no seasonal allergies, but if he is a low-histamine person he may have food sensitvities. My naturopath has believed food allergies were part of my son's probems all along. So I will also be testing for that. He does seem sensitive to MSG and red and yellow food dyes which I read is common with KPU (which he has).

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http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Major%20Mental%20Illness%20Biochemical%20Subtypes

 

This link has a chart that helps breakdown some of the info. I'm confused about a lot of things but right now how KPU fits into all this. My girls seem to have more under methylation symptoms but they do have average and over symptoms too.

 

Susan

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I don't really have any comments to make except that I did find a Labcorp test for histamine level:

histamine determination, whole blood

 

My son has all the symptoms for low histamine (even the artistic/music one), so I am curious to have this test run. The interesting link is that my son has no seasonal allergies, but if he is a low-histamine person he may have food sensitvities. My naturopath has believed food allergies were part of my son's probems all along. So I will also be testing for that. He does seem sensitive to MSG and red and yellow food dyes which I read is common with KPU (which he has).

 

 

Do you know if there are any requirements for these tests? (no benadryl or allergy meds or specific supplements for a period of time before the test?)

 

I am curious with the low histamine signs for your KPU child. dd8 is being treated for KPU and she is only allergic to dust. She has many food intolerances but she shows more symptoms of high histamine although she is more a mixture of both than my other dd.

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Do you know if there are any requirements for these tests? (no benadryl or allergy meds or specific supplements for a period of time before the test?)

 

I am curious with the low histamine signs for your KPU child. dd8 is being treated for KPU and she is only allergic to dust. She has many food intolerances but she shows more symptoms of high histamine although she is more a mixture of both than my other dd.

 

I looked up the test on Labcorp's website and it doesn't seems to mention being off anything, but that is a good question.

 

Here are my son's symptoms:

Dry eyes, thick hair, hyperactive, low perspiration, restless legs, very artistic and musical, no seasonal allergies (not sure about food allergies, though he doesn't do well with MSG or yellow and red food dyes), very social--thrives when around people), underachiever as a child (was a late reader, but did well in school after that), doesn't like breakfast, over-stimulated mind. He does not have all the symptoms, but he seems to lean that way as opposed to high histamine. Also, he has the adolescent-variant of PANDAS, and Dr. T has found that these kids tend to be low-histamine.

 

I'll post the results when my son has the test done.

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I just posted this question on the PANDAS forum but has anyone here tested for deviations in the MTHFR gene?

 

Ours showed a defect and DD has been taking 5MTHFR for a few months. Don't know if it's the 5MTHFR or the treatment for Bart but her anxiety/OCD is so manageable now!!

 

We also tried participating in a study on cerebral folate but DD's blood was spoiled in transit and they couldn't use it.

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I just posted this question on the PANDAS forum but has anyone here tested for deviations in the MTHFR gene?

 

Ours showed a defect and DD has been taking 5MTHFR for a few months. Don't know if it's the 5MTHFR or the treatment for Bart but her anxiety/OCD is so manageable now!!

 

We also tried participating in a study on cerebral folate but DD's blood was spoiled in transit and they couldn't use it.

How do you test for this?

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Blood test. Our local hospital did it.

 

I just posted this question on the PANDAS forum but has anyone here tested for deviations in the MTHFR gene?

 

Ours showed a defect and DD has been taking 5MTHFR for a few months. Don't know if it's the 5MTHFR or the treatment for Bart but her anxiety/OCD is so manageable now!!

 

We also tried participating in a study on cerebral folate but DD's blood was spoiled in transit and they couldn't use it.

How do you test for this?

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Any thoughts on difficulty regulating histamine? Is it possible to be too high sometimes and too low other times?

 

Not sure, but I read this at http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshMP.htm

 

"Please note that whole blood histamine is a marker for innate methylation tendency, but is not an indicator of wellness or the degree to which undermethylation has been overcome. Undermethylated patients can become quite well without their histamine lab results changing at all."

 

So I would take that to mean you are born either overmethylated, undermethylated, or normal methylation.

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I haven't grasped the whole concept well enough to understand it, but I know just from experience that you can have varying degrees of histamine levels throughout the day (think of how your allergies can be more or less troublesome) depending on when and where you're exposed to environmental triggers. Would probably also vary depending on what your levels were of the various elements (SAMe, vitamins, etc). So I would guess that you could have changing levels of histamine. But how this relates to your general tendency to methylate, I don't yet understand.

 

One of the groups I've come across - maybe the Pfeiffer Treatment Center - categorizes people into 26 different sub-types, with 26 different "recipes" of supplement combos.

 

Also, I'm speculating that chronic illness changes your methylation abilities and creates a clog in the system somewhere. Eradicate or lessen the influence of the illness and the system dynamics change, improving the methylation cycle and your body's ability to detox. So in some ways, your current methylation "health" would change in response to your overall health. I think the genetic tests reflect your body's general tendency - shows where you're likely to have a problem. But doesn't mean (I think) that you're doomed to have the problem to a consistent degree your whole life. Just like your HLA DR genetic profile - you may have a tendency to be unable to handle mold exposure well. But if you can remove the mold, your body can regain balance and health. I think in a similar manner, you can supplement at certain points in the methylation cycle and regain balance. Once you address chronic illness, the need for those supplements may change.

 

That's my current thinking, anyway. Could totally change as I learn more.

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Also, I'm speculating that chronic illness changes your methylation abilities and creates a clog in the system somewhere. Eradicate or lessen the influence of the illness and the system dynamics change, improving the methylation cycle and your body's ability to detox. So in some ways, your current methylation "health" would change in response to your overall health. I think the genetic tests reflect your body's general tendency - shows where you're likely to have a problem.

This makes sense, but if the whole histamine blood test only shows your tendency for low/high histamine and not your current state, what do you do? How do you know how to treat? If theoretically you can be born with a low-histamine tendency but become high-histamine because of a chronic infection (or vice versa for that matter), how do you know which kind of supplements to take? And as you heal from a chronic infection, what then? Would you possibly see for example benedryl help and then later actually make you worse because your methylation has change. Is there anyway to test your current histamine level and not your innate histamine? Hope this makes sense.

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I'll speculate that you could test levels of methylation components, but as you probably know, blood levels are not necessarily reflective of interacellular levels (e.g. zinc blood level may be fine even if a KPU induced zinc deficiency intracelullarly). So I think it's one of those dart board parlor games where we get to add or remove stuff and observe.

 

To make the game more fum, how's this twist - so I add stuff and he seems fine, maybe even better. But then after a few weeks, get gets worse. Is it because now there's too much in the system? Or is it because we've enhanced the methylation process and the body is now working on things like chronic infection/detox and it's that "herx" kind of reaction? How the heck are you supposed to know?

 

Ds is home sick today. We haven't changed any dosages of anything in about 2-3 weeks. Yet he's complaining of brain fog, muscle pain (haven't had this one in about 4-5 months), sore throat (no swollen glands or fever). Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

 

I am soooo tired of this crap.

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LLM -- I'm going to ask my naturopath about this tomorrow. There has to be an answer to this--a specific road to follow to test properly for all this stuff so that you supplement properly. It isn't rocket science. Someone should be able to direct us. I just don't think PANDAS doctors are educated enough on the natural stuff to direct and good lyme doctor's (or infectious disease doctors as I like to think of them) are just too few and far between. Perhaps the naturopathic world can help. I'll post.

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