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Not PANDAS, but histadelia we think


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quick one, sorry, off topic but...

 

re Alzheimer's - I had read that there are researchers that believe rather than being the bad guy, the amyloid plaques could be good guys trying to contain/get rid of infections that shouldn't in the brain. That the BBB is at fault and is letting in pathogens that it shouldn't be and the a. plaques are a protective measure but cure is also kill....

 

 

just thinking.. I read an article that cited some neuro dr who said that many people get anti-neuronals - no biggie - but for those with issues it is the BBB that's to blame.

 

My father had alzheimer's, my dd and ds have PANDAS. Could the methylation cycle issue just be having a knock-on effect on BBB 'cos of changes to the vasculature due to high homocysteine levels, so yes some folks with MTHFR get heart issues, some vascular and others BBB vascular disorders.. and our kids unfortunately are one of the-not-so-few with circulating anti-neuronals that opportunistically affect the brain cos of BBB crapness.....?

 

this doesn't account for under methylators mind you....

 

i'm tired.. off to eat curry and drink mike's hard black cherry lemonade.. it's just soda right? ;)

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Ok...Nancy, this is for you - you will LOVE the Table of Contents of this book, particularly page 85

http://www.amazon.com/Autism-Pathways-Dr-Amy-Yasko/dp/1424343216/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319240918&sr=1-1

 

Holy c^@%! That Table of Contents is pretty much the whole enchilda, is it not?!?!

 

Dunno if I can wait 'til Christmas! :D

 

Thanks!

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quick one, sorry, off topic but...

 

re Alzheimer's - I had read that there are researchers that believe rather than being the bad guy, the amyloid plaques could be good guys trying to contain/get rid of infections that shouldn't in the brain. That the BBB is at fault and is letting in pathogens that it shouldn't be and the a. plaques are a protective measure but cure is also kill....

 

 

just thinking.. I read an article that cited some neuro dr who said that many people get anti-neuronals - no biggie - but for those with issues it is the BBB that's to blame.

 

My father had alzheimer's, my dd and ds have PANDAS. Could the methylation cycle issue just be having a knock-on effect on BBB 'cos of changes to the vasculature due to high homocysteine levels, so yes some folks with MTHFR get heart issues, some vascular and others BBB vascular disorders.. and our kids unfortunately are one of the-not-so-few with circulating anti-neuronals that opportunistically affect the brain cos of BBB crapness.....?

 

this doesn't account for under methylators mind you....

 

Seems possible, re. your whole BBB/methylation theory. As for under-methylation and the BBB, I'm thinking it could still be part of the same cycle, but the genesis may be different. As in, rather than methylation being the "knock-on" for the BBB, the open BBB is allowing in toxins that throw off the methylation or make it inefficient.

 

i'm tired.. off to eat curry and drink mike's hard black cherry lemonade.. it's just soda right? ;)

 

There's a hard black cherry lemonade?!?!?! :huh: Man, I've been missing out! I've been stuck on the pomegranate lemonade, but I am a fickle beast, and I love me some black cherry! Thanks for the lead! :D

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HI all,

 

Ok I am new at this overloaded and confused. There. I don't understadn what methylation is even when I tr to read about it. How do you know if a child is under or over, what do you look for ie tests symptoms, etc etc. And waht does it mean? We don't have histamine values on my son only histDINE, and homocyteine plasma adn urine fall in normal range (tested once). Can anyone explain this to a "dummy?" What is "under methylated" and "over methylated"...hwo do oyu know? What kidn of doc can tell u (mind youour success at fdingin aynone, you are all much more knowledgable). I just don't understadn this, liek a foreign lanaguge I'm afraid......Someone mentioned somewhere about Dt T's explanations I can't find that post now but did he say anything about this and/or explained to where it made sense or connected the "dots." I just don't know what this means? God bless..... and/or have you found out anything else in your searches? Thank you. SO much, C

 

Hey C --

 

Dr. T. has commented more than once (maybe it's on his web site, also) that he thinks PANDAS kids are low in histamine; if you Google "low histamine," you'll find a lot of articles and web sites linking low brain histamine levels to various disorders and behaviors. But that didn't add up for some of us because we know, either via testing or because our children have allergic reactions that respond positive to antihistamines, that some PANS kids are actually high, rather than low, in histamine. My DS, for example, has never been tested, but he's allergic to dust, mold, cat dander and pollen and he's regularly taking antihistamines both day and night, all to good results and no bad ones. So, does your child have any obvious allergic reactions? If so, that might be an indicator this the histamine levels are low.

 

Sorry, I don't know anything what histidine contributes to the picture, but if your homocysteine plasma levels are in the normal range, then that would seem to indicate that the methylation process is efficient enough that it is not creating excess homocysteine, meaning it is being successfully taken up again and converted to SAMe in that cycle. That's only my layman's read of it, though. Found this paper citation about excess plasma homocysteine linked to Alzheimer's, so I assume your doctor wanted to rule out those excess levels having any potential impact on cognitive issues for your son.

 

Plama Homocysteine & Alzheimers

 

Here's a link I found to a Pfeiffer "list" of over- and under-methylated symptomology. Might be helpful.

 

Over and Under Methylated Symptoms

 

My read of the material is that if you're under-methylating, then you lack methyl (or SAMe); SAMe, in turn, contributes to processes throughout the body . . . gut, brain, musculature, joints, etc. This is a great series of videos by this guy; the first one is about under-methylation:

 

 

This one explains over-methylation in simple terms:

 

 

In the end, like everything else, it seems as though it's a delicate balance to some extent, and if our kids are knocked out of whack by illness, auto-immune, BBB -- whatever -- getting them balanced again can be tricky.

 

It's all really interesting, though!

 

Does any of this add to the picture?

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Cab --

 

I'm sorry . . . those labs are WAY over my head! Surely the doc who ordered them is giving you feedback on them, no?

 

The only thing that was legible and stuck out at me was the comment about "vitamin B12 deficiency." If that's part of your DS's picture, then, if you look at that Pfeiffer "fact page" again, then that would seem to point not to histadelia, but to histapenia, which is an over-methylated state. Seemingly, B12 supplementation should help bring him back more in balance.

 

Do any of the other symptoms on that Pfeiffer "list" seem apt to your DS's symptomology?

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Hi My son has an EXTREME PEANUT ALLERGY I mean EXTREME!!!!! ; Dt T thinks, he thingks, that maybe ds is low on Histamine also no basophils (not sure about that since basos ar eso uncommon as part of the differential) but he thinks it has been saving hei. What I don't get - again..if my son who has VERY HIGH IgE leves and severe PN allergy, also Class II to three of our grasses out here, how he he be LOW in histamine? I guess still a dummy; don't get it. If son has such sev allergies adn documented high IgE leves, can u explain IYHO how his histamien can be low? I really don't understadn and want to.

 

Can a lab test for histamine? What is the relationship bet histamine and histadine? Thank you.... thank you, C

 

I've seen mention of urine tests for histamine, but given the battery your DS has already been through, it must be in there somewhere already? So Dr. T. ordered these tests? So, what does HE say about the results?

 

Here's a link explaining the relationship between histidine and histamine. Apparently, histidine is an amino acid precursor to the hormone, histamine.

 

Histidine and Histamine

 

Unfortunately, I am learning right alongside you here, and most of your questions are over my head. I do not understand all the implications of IgE, etc. If Dr. T. is not giving you a full explanation, maybe an allergist or immunologist could examine and explain the results and implications? Sorry! :(

 

Maybe someone else here can address your questions better.

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This may be helpful - but please note - even this source says these are generalizations and can't be used to come up with a treatment plan. But it does offer a little help in determining what may be helpful or not helpful for your kind of kid. I wouldn't start tossing supplements willy nilly but it seems like a good, simplified guide of a very complex system.

 

http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Major%20Mental%20Illness%20Biochemical%20Subtypes

Edited by LLM
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Hi - along the lines of methylation and maybe it being an issue for BBB - there is lots to read if you do a search for BBB and histamine. Here's one but there's plenty more

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10696506

 

from what I can tell, the few I've looked at and sort of understood, seem to say that H1 is protective, reduces endothelial mediated permeability and H2 increases permeability. So taking cimetidine (tagamet) say, when you get a head bump would be good but not something like benedryl.. not sure if I'm reading the studies right but that is my lay take on it....

 

any thoughts? thanks...

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