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can lyme or co-infections cause tics, ocd, adhd, decline in drawing?

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I hesitate to ask here, and no offense, but I don't want just the token "yes"---I seriously want to know if Lyme or co-infections can cause numerous tics, ocd, adhd, decline in drawing....basically pandas symptoms??? No pain, fatigue, etc.

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I hesitate to ask here, and no offense, but I don't want just the token "yes"---I seriously want to know if Lyme or co-infections can cause numerous tics, ocd, adhd, decline in drawing....basically pandas symptoms??? No pain, fatigue, etc.

 

Absolutely yes! My dd who has lyme/bartonella had the following symptoms in order of severity: OCD, ADD, vocal and motor tics, completely unable to write/read due to ocd so can't track hand writing ability. Classic symptoms.

 

Also urinary frequency (one bed wetting episode when first infected)

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Token "yes" and, I think part of what makes PANDAS vs. Lyme vs. what else so difficult is that many of the symptoms overlap. My son has been diagnosed PANDAS, Lyme, bartonella, suspected Babesia. His symptoms include or have included behavioral changes (anger, violent, PITA), dystonia, tics, dilated pupils, a dramatic decline in math skills, sudden onset and severe OCD (last symptom), picky eating behaviors (a symptom - who knows but started out as a good eater), anxiety, crying out in sleep early morning, ...I'll think of more later. Current doctor firmly believes that bartonella is responsible for behavior and OCD.

 

Unlike others, sound and light have never bothered him; he often only pees twice a day; and his reading has never been affected. He also does not "herx" like others or react to illness in the house or school.

 

No one really knows but....

 

bill

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yes, on the sx list you gave. Cunningham has shown that there is a rise in Cam Kinase II in Lyme cases as well as other infections. not only just strep. I think the alliance of Dr. Karen Newell will help sort out the overlapping and what is going on. Her research and tx protocols are close to the beginning of FDA trials and are very exciting. But, yes on all he symptoms.

dawn

 

My edit is to say that if your child was perhaps only scratched by a cat and caught a bartonella species this way, then I suppose you would get it without Bb. I am sure there are other vectors, too.

Edited by Iowadawn

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Iowadawn...who is Dr. Karen Newell....what is her research and tx protocols?

 

 

yes, on the sx list you gave. Cunningham has shown that there is a rise in Cam Kinase II in Lyme cases as well as other infections. not only just strep. I think the alliance of Dr. Karen Newell will help sort out the overlapping and what is going on. Her research and tx protocols are close to the beginning of FDA trials and are very exciting. But, yes on all he symptoms.

dawn

 

My edit is to say that if your child was perhaps only scratched by a cat and caught a bartonella species this way, then I suppose you would get it without Bb. I am sure there are other vectors, too.

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Iowadawn...who is Dr. Karen Newell....what is her research and tx protocols?

 

 

yes, on the sx list you gave. Cunningham has shown that there is a rise in Cam Kinase II in Lyme cases as well as other infections. not only just strep. I think the alliance of Dr. Karen Newell will help sort out the overlapping and what is going on. Her research and tx protocols are close to the beginning of FDA trials and are very exciting. But, yes on all he symptoms.

dawn

 

My edit is to say that if your child was perhaps only scratched by a cat and caught a bartonella species this way, then I suppose you would get it without Bb. I am sure there are other vectors, too.

 

 

 

A little info on Dr. Newell:

 

http://www.pandoranet.info/documents/ViralGeneticspressrelease04242009.pdf

 

Also, I beleive she was at the NIH meeting held last year with the Pandas doctors.

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okay---what's the best test for bartonella? can they have only bartonella and NOT lyme??

 

Our LLMD told us the tests for Bartonella are even more unreliable than the tests for lyme, and she won't even order them. She makes a clinical diagnosis, and response to treatment factors in.

 

In the last year we have made a journey from juvenile bipolar, to PANDAS, to lyme, bartonella and possible babesia. My head is still spinning. DS7 has similar symptoms - vocal tics, OCD, very ADHD at times, decline in all school skills - refusal to put anything on paper anymore, despite being advanced in this area 2 years ago. His CamK was 176, with anti dopamine 1 at 4000. One of the main PANDAS docs called him a "poster boy" for PANDAS.

He does have pain - joint pain, and muscle pain.

 

We tested all 3 boys for lyme and got positive IGeneX results back on all 3 last week. I'm also positive for lyme, even by CDC standards. I knew nothing about lyme before researching PANDAS and hearing about lyme over and over from the parents here.

 

I read somewhere that Bartonella turns off antibodies - I know I'm probably not saying that exactly right, and I don't remember where I read it, but it's something you could research. Apparently if you have bart you can test negative for lyme and other infections because they are being "masked" by the bart, and once bartonella is treated those other infections will then test positive. But anything is possible, you could just have bart, and not other infections.

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Our LLMD told us the tests for Bartonella are even more unreliable than the tests for lyme, and she won't even order them.

 

 

I may be mistaken, but I think that unreliabe part is false negatives as opposed to false positives. So, if you test and get a positive, you could be pretty certain it was correct. My dd9 tested positive for Bartonella through IgeneX, but not Quest (although the Quest lab was run after 4 mos of treatment). She has not tested positive for Lyme (only band 41 was IND - nothing else showed up at all). We are currently waiting for a second round of Western Blot results through IgeneX, so this may change...my dd's symptoms have always been pshyciatric - OCD, rages, ADHD, emotional lability, deterioriation in math skills...no physical symptoms, no rashes.

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okay---what's the best test for bartonella? can they have only bartonella and NOT lyme??

 

 

Do not know what the best test is. Son tested positive on the heselae IgG from Igenex (<1:40 is negative; his was 1:80)

 

I recall that my doctor was pleasantly surprised at the positive result - not that he was positive, but that it came back positive. So yeah, must be another unreliable test.

 

I am sure that they can have either one individually.

 

bill

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okay---what's the best test for bartonella? can they have only bartonella and NOT lyme??

 

We tested through Igenex. My understanding is the Bartonella tests often come up with a false negative, but my ds tested positive. He was IND on two Lyme-specific bands for Lyme, so essentially a negative test result. We are treating for both diseases based on symptoms and history. And our LLMD told me that its very rare to just have Bartonella. Its possible he could have gotten Bartonella from a cat scratch (or I could have, and given it to him in utero), but the symptoms would look different.

 

Igenex gets a bad rap in some quarters - accusations of false positives and "always" yielding a positive result, but they don't always come up positive. I tested neg for Lyme and coinfections via Igenex, my son tested negative for Lyme, and my husband, who was bitten by a tick carrying Lyme Disease (lab confirmed by saving and testing the tick) tested negative.

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I have heard generally that treating lyme can take care of autoimmune problems. Don't know about that specific d8/17 one you are referring to. Lyme infection can change your DNA and make you have bad responses to things, so I can see why treating lyme would reduce incidence of future autoimmune issues cropping up, but no idea why that would take care of already created ones.

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This is really interesting. Someone's found a genetic marker for autoimmunity to strep? Can you share the article?

 

But even tackling Lyme doesn't change that a lot of people with PANDAS have that d8/17 genetic marker to have an adverse/autoimmune reaction to strep. By beating down the Lyme are you hoping to have no adverse reaction in response to strep in the future? It just controls inflammation doesn't it?

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I personally don't think any of it is genetic in our case- I have a DS13, and DD4, who are totally healthy, happy, do well in school and home...I guess you could say they didn't 'get' the marker, but, I lean toward/believe

my dd6 had a toxic/bacteria assult to her body, causing complete immune dysfunction-

she has mercury, high EBV, CMV, HHV-6 virsues, an overgrowth of fungi/mold her in gut-

and very possible lyme- we are awaiting our Igenex results.

If she does have lyme, it is very possible I have it too, and did pass that on, but we don't know.

Oh and yeah, the strep issue.

 

Just my opinion. Maybe I've been hanging out in the autism world too much (my dd6 does not have autism, but the medical issues that many autistics do have) but when I hear genetic causes over there, it makes my skin crawl, because you cannot have a genetic epidemic- it is impossible. It is external causes.

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