A reason to pulse abx

[LNN]

I've been trying to understand biofilms - the slime that forms around colonies of bacteria. It's a big issue in lyme because once bacteria forms a biofilm, you can hit it with 1,000 times a normal dose of abx and not make a dent. I found this link and though some of my geek Pandas friends might find it interesting. It's VERY long. But toward the middle, it starts to talk about how pulsing antibiotics, rather than taking lots and lots every day, can erode away a biofilm. For anyone who may be struggling with any chronic infection, some good info...

 

http://bacteriality.com/2008/05/26/biofilm/

[kimballot]

Thanks, LLM - This is a great article! Now I understand biofilms much better! The whole time I was reading it I was thinking "I wonder if my son's sinuses could have been lined with biofilm and if that was why it was so difficult to eradicate... then I found it in the article - It has also recently been shown that biofilms are present on the removed tissue of 80% of patients undergoing surgery for chronic sinusitis.

 

I think this is one of those articles that I will refer back to several times as it really explains so much about all those nasty little pests in our bodies that are building these impermeable cities of biofilm!

[LNN]

I thought the same thing about your son when I read it - and about someone else's Pandas daughter when I read about ear tubes and someone else's son whose Pandas flairs are closely related to periodontal disease. It's one of those articles that resonates.

 

I don't know much about the Marshal Protocol, other than coming across it once before and walking away with the impression it was controversial. But 3 years into this, controversy no longer bothers me the way it once did. Have probably found my pet research topic for the week

 

(BTW - browse around the rest of this site - other pages also have some interesting tidbits about Vitamin D, prednisone, herxing...)

Edited May 25, 2011 by LLM

[MomWithOCDSon]

Thanks, LLM. Definitely interested and will read this tome before turning in tonight!

 

I'm not sure how much this article goes into "pulsing abx," but I'd be interested in experiential information in addition, anyway.

 

What do you mean, really, by "pulsing abx"? What kind of intervals and doses are we talking about?

[Dedee]

Wow, very interesting about the Vitamin D. Two of my kids are Vitamin D deficient and I have heard a few others say that their PANDAS kids are also Vitamin D deficient. Explains a lot. Makes me wonder about the appropriate treatment for mycoplasma and other chronic diseases some of these kids have......

[LNN]

 

What do you mean, really, by "pulsing abx"? What kind of intervals and doses are we talking about?

 

From what I read, the timing of pulsing depends somewhat on the life cycle of the particular bacteria. You want to hit it as it's replicating. Stopping an abx lets the bacteria think the coast is clear to reproduce, then when it does, you hit with with abx again and wipe out the emerging generation. As for dosing, haven't gotten that for in my research.

 

In lyme, I've come across two strategies, using tindamax or flagyl - both cyst busters for lyme. Some people go on it for weeks on and weeks off at a time and some go on for 2-3 days, then off for 4 days. But it may depend on clinical symptoms and how much of a herx the body can stand.

 

This article talks about lots of diseases, so no specific recommendations. But it does mention that chronic disease often depletes the body's proper use of vitamin D and discusses how this can make the body immune deficient, unable to mop up bacteria that remain once abx are stopped. Mentions Vit D supplementation and prednisone as incomplete solutions. None of this should be tried without input from your treating doctor, but food for thought. It's a long article, but if you can wade through it, it mentions a lot of topics touched on in this forum.

[PowPow]

Our LLMD treated my Lyme & Babesia positive PITANDS child with pulsed dosed antibiotics. I am so grateful that you posted this explanation. I was never able to quite understand why we were pulse-dosing. I do not remember the specifics, but it was like ceftin or zithro or something m, w, f; among may other treatments. It would have been very helpful for me to understand the purpose behind this when she was being treated. The number of times I got bizarre looks from other doctors about the interval dosing extrememly frustrating. Thanks for posting this article.

[Doug]

I've been trying to understand biofilms - the slime that forms around colonies of bacteria. It's a big issue in lyme because once bacteria forms a biofilm, you can hit it with 1,000 times a normal dose of abx and not make a dent. I found this link and though some of my geek Pandas friends might find it interesting. It's VERY long. But toward the middle, it starts to talk about how pulsing antibiotics, rather than taking lots and lots every day, can erode away a biofilm. For anyone who may be struggling with any chronic infection, some good info...

 

http://bacteriality.com/2008/05/26/biofilm/

WOW what a great link My DH will love reading this... I even read most of it..

We have has 2 HD of ivig with Dr.K and we are on azith 250 every other day for a year

would that be pulsing??

I know it all started with her ears..... she had so many ear infections...

 

Tracie

[Megs_Mom]

Thanks, LLM. Definitely interested and will read this tome before turning in tonight!

 

I'm not sure how much this article goes into "pulsing abx," but I'd be interested in experiential information in addition, anyway.

 

What do you mean, really, by "pulsing abx"? What kind of intervals and doses are we talking about?

 

We pulse dose, based on our original treating doc, who was a big believer. We use azith, every other day. Once a month, we hit it for 3-5 days, and can increase to everyday if we see signs of OCD associated with illness (which it always is). It's been very effective - or at least we think it has .

[911RN]

I've been trying to understand biofilms - the slime that forms around colonies of bacteria. It's a big issue in lyme because once bacteria forms a biofilm, you can hit it with 1,000 times a normal dose of abx and not make a dent. I found this link and though some of my geek Pandas friends might find it interesting. It's VERY long. But toward the middle, it starts to talk about how pulsing antibiotics, rather than taking lots and lots every day, can erode away a biofilm. For anyone who may be struggling with any chronic infection, some good info...

 

http://bacteriality.com/2008/05/26/biofilm/

 

 

I have not read the entire rticle yet, in depth, but skimmed it pretty well. Pretty fascinating info. We are on every other day Azithro 500 mg following Schulman's protocol. The Marshall protocol is not just pulsing- it calls for using the drug Benicar, light restriction and a bunch of other contoversial things. However, I, like some others on the board say PANDAS/PITANDS is controversial from the get go- why should any of this be any different?? I'm from the Church of What Works! Thanks for the post- the gal that wrote the paper seems to be a pretty sharp cookie if you continue to read post comments at end of paper.

[MomWithOCDSon]

Okay, finally just got through this paper yesterday . . . dense and LOTS of information.

 

Something resonated for us in it, and could go a long way toward explaining our Asymptomatic Strep-Child!

 

Anyone else get a wake-up call from the section about otitis medea? Someone else here on the forum some time ago had posted a link to a French study regarding otitis medea and strep colonization, and now here's documentation regarding biofilm in the middle ear of kids with chronic otitis medea.

 

Our DS had chronic otitis medea from the age of about 14 months until he turned three and we finally "bit the bullet" and submitted him for the tympanostomy (ear tubes) to facilitate more effective drainage.

 

So, via the French study, it seems entirely possible that he harbored strep in his ears (though not, classically, in his throat), and via this paper, the strep may have been further protected and harbored by biofilm.

 

Egad! What our doctors DON'T know could fill a full set of encyclopedias!

Edited June 13, 2011 by MomWithOCDSon