Can you use too much melatonin?

[ilovedogs]

I posted over on the TS side of the boards but they aren't very active over there. I know many of you deal with sleep issues so I figured I'd pop my question over here. My ds(he's 12) has been having a terrible time falling to sleep. Last night he finally feel asleep at around 12:30 AM. I had given him 600 mcg of melatonin to start and he said he took it at 11:15(so that was pretty late to begin with). At midnight he was at his wit's end and wanted to sleep so I gave him a 12.5 mg tablet of Benadryl. Then at 12:30 when he couldn't sleep still, I upped his dose of melatonin by 300 mcg. Anyway, he finally fell asleep but I don't know if that was exhaustion or because I had to up the melatonin.

 

My dh thinks that ds had trouble getting to sleep because we have been having some really sweet dessert treats after dinner, usually around 8:30 or so. So, I told ds that we need to cut out sugar after dinner and see if that helps. He basically told me that he felt wide awake at midnight. He said that every time he went to close his eyes, they would spring open and he'd be wide awake. I am taking him to a new GP on Friday to discuss some of his issues but I am so exhausted myself right now because we've been up so late. Any suggestions?

[emst]

I posted over on the TS side of the boards but they aren't very active over there. I know many of you deal with sleep issues so I figured I'd pop my question over here. My ds(he's 12) has been having a terrible time falling to sleep. Last night he finally feel asleep at around 12:30 AM. I had given him 600 mcg of melatonin to start and he said he took it at 11:15(so that was pretty late to begin with). At midnight he was at his wit's end and wanted to sleep so I gave him a 12.5 mg tablet of Benadryl. Then at 12:30 when he couldn't sleep still, I upped his dose of melatonin by 300 mcg. Anyway, he finally fell asleep but I don't know if that was exhaustion or because I had to up the melatonin.

 

My dh thinks that ds had trouble getting to sleep because we have been having some really sweet dessert treats after dinner, usually around 8:30 or so. So, I told ds that we need to cut out sugar after dinner and see if that helps. He basically told me that he felt wide awake at midnight. He said that every time he went to close his eyes, they would spring open and he'd be wide awake. I am taking him to a new GP on Friday to discuss some of his issues but I am so exhausted myself right now because we've been up so late. Any suggestions?

 

 

Melatonin works when you have a melatonin deficiency. I've been working with the impression that any time you go higher than 3-5 then perhaps melatonin is not your sole need. Our Kids are younger 8 and 10, they take 2.5 mg time released melatonin (Kirkmans) every night more because it keeps them asleep vs. knocks them out.

Other things you could add when you're feeling the need to go higher: Calcium and Magnesium combo, these kids need magnesium (!); GABA you can go up to 700 mg but try 100, 200 mg first; a Gaba/Theanine combo called Zen is nice with 200 mg of each as I recall; 100-300 mg of L-Theanine is very relaxing. All of these will address different deficiencies in these kids bodies. Evens them out. Works for tired parents too.

 

Love L-Theanine for homework anxiety.

[ilovedogs]

They are taking 2.5 MG or 250 mcg? The tablets I have are 3 MG tablets and I break it down to very small doses. I tried taking a whole 3 MG myself, and I was very groggy upon waking and I didn't feel right. I think the most I've ever given him is 1.5 MG so 1/2 a tablet. Most times I break down the tablets as small as I think he needs for the night so the dose is never consistent. I just started back with our cal/mag supplements so hopefully that will help, too. GABA made him tic more and L-theanine made his OCD go out of control so I try to stay away from anything that affects the GABA receptors right now. I'm a bit gun shy.

Edited March 15, 2011 by ilovedogs

[kimballot]

I posted over on the TS side of the boards but they aren't very active over there. I know many of you deal with sleep issues so I figured I'd pop my question over here. My ds(he's 12) has been having a terrible time falling to sleep. Last night he finally feel asleep at around 12:30 AM. I had given him 600 mcg of melatonin to start and he said he took it at 11:15(so that was pretty late to begin with). At midnight he was at his wit's end and wanted to sleep so I gave him a 12.5 mg tablet of Benadryl. Then at 12:30 when he couldn't sleep still, I upped his dose of melatonin by 300 mcg. Anyway, he finally fell asleep but I don't know if that was exhaustion or because I had to up the melatonin.

 

My dh thinks that ds had trouble getting to sleep because we have been having some really sweet dessert treats after dinner, usually around 8:30 or so. So, I told ds that we need to cut out sugar after dinner and see if that helps. He basically told me that he felt wide awake at midnight. He said that every time he went to close his eyes, they would spring open and he'd be wide awake. I am taking him to a new GP on Friday to discuss some of his issues but I am so exhausted myself right now because we've been up so late. Any suggestions?

 

 

It does seem that 900 mcg is a very small dose (that is .9mg - correct?). My DS is very sensitive to meds and he started with .75mg at 11 years old. He went up to 1.5 at about 12 years old and now takes the full 3 mg. I know some children who are smaller than my son who take 6mg. I think it really depends on the child.

 

Also, my son does not do well with high levels of melatonin as he awakens with nightmares. So, I do 100 mg of 5htp at bedtime along with the melatonin and that seems to help. Also - a good routine - cut down on food before bed, and cut back on electronic visual stimulation - try to stick with reading books and/ or listening to music or white noise (my son has to have very loud fans blowing in his room).

[Suzan]

I don't know how high you can go but our doc's all say I can go up to 5 mg for my kids (they are 8 yrs/51 lbs and 9 yrs/85 lbs). I usually give them 2.5 mgs and that does the trick for us. We love 5-htp and l-theanine here too. 5-htp really works great for calming anxiety.

 

Susan

[emst]

They are taking 2.5 MG or 250 mcg? The tablets I have are 3 MG tablets and I break it down to very small doses. I tried taking a whole 3 MG myself, and I was very groggy upon waking and I didn't feel right. I think the most I've ever given him is 1.5 MG so 1/2 a tablet. Most times I break down the tablets as small as I think he needs for the night so the dose is never consistent. I just started back with our cal/mag supplements so hopefully that will help, too. GABA made him tic more and L-theanine made his OCD go out of control so I try to stay away from anything that affects the GABA receptors right now. I'm a bit gun shy.

 

They take 2.5 MG, time released which does affect them differently then a regular 2, or 3 MG that is not time released would. That would knock them out, might give them nightmares like the previous poster said, it used to happen.

I feel that a boy of 12 probably needs more than 1, 1.5.

Also you want a supplement without a lot of fillers, sometimes the same dose in another brand works better. We do like Kirkmans because it is free of gluten and allergens that bother my kids. We get it at Lee Silsby OurKids mail order, generally if you enter FREESHIP they ship free over $40

I've read that a lot of kids with immune issues do have a mild hormone imbalance or deficit and they are just not producing melatonin properly especially in their ill state.

Yes, taking another look at calcium is a good idea. It can be very calming. Please also look at magnesium for calming, and products like kids calm that are magnesium based and address basic deficiencies that can worry these kids bodies, cause sleeplessness or as you described very wired, unable to settle down.

Good luck.

Edited March 16, 2011 by emst

[airial95]

My guy is young, and I feel like we OD him when reading all of this!!! We started with 400 mcg, but that did nothing. We kept inching it up, with no luck. I bought the 3mg tablets (which was the next lowest dose I could readily find) and we started with half a tablet (1.5 MG) after 2 weeks at that dose, we still weren't having any luck. We tried the full 3 MG and it worked like a charm. He's been great on it ever since (going on 6 weeks now) with no nightmares, and no grogginess in the morning - he still wakes up on his own at the usual time. I asked our Dr. and pharmacist about proper dosing by weight, and they said that there weren't any real clear cut guidelines.

 

We had our sleep problems when he went off abx a couple of months ago. He's back on for 90 days, and we've talked about taking him off completely to see if he needs it while he's on abx, but it's become such an entrenched part of his routine that we're afraid to mix things up.

[nicklemama]

I don't think the dose is enough for a boy of 12. My DS is 7 and we give him 0.5mgs each night. It helps him go to sleep but doesn't keep him asleep. I amy look into the Kirkmans timed release. In the search for answers to figure out what was wrong w/ my son, we've seen two neurologists, pediatrician, child psychologist, child psychiatrist and neuropsychologist. Every one of them okay'd the melatonin. I've been told I could go as high as 6mg but we've never gone higher than 0.5mg at a time.

 

Even if my son wakes during the night, he will go right back to sleep about 99% of the time (I know because he's getting into our bed). On that 1% of time where he can't get back to sleep, I get up and get another 0.5mg tablet.

[ilovedogs]

Well, he was so tired last night that he crashed at 10:30. We'll see how the rest of the week goes. I'm hesitant to go back to the Melatonin because I can't seem to get the dose right. Maybe I'll start with 1 MG and see if that works? I also downloaded a CD from Itunes called "Relaxation Music for Pets and Kids". Seriously! My ds loved it. He put it on his Ipod and played it in his room and said it was quite relaxing. Not saying this will help him fall asleep every night but this might contribute to a relaxed state to make falling asleep easier for him.

 

I have met so many people who have said that when their kids hit 12, they had trouble getting to bed earlier and became more night owlish. So, this all may be part of hormonal changes. We have a family of night owls on both sides of our families. My grandmother (she's 84) still stays up until midnight most nights. She and my uncle were always night people and my husband and his mom are the night owls on his side of the family.

[airial95]

Even if my son wakes during the night, he will go right back to sleep about 99% of the time (I know because he's getting into our bed). On that 1% of time where he can't get back to sleep, I get up and get another 0.5mg tablet.

 

This was our problem pre-melatonin, falling asleep was no problem, but he'd sleep for about 2 hours and then be up for the rest of the night. Even if he didn't come to wake us up (although most nights he woke up just as we were going to bed), he would play in his room all night, and fall back to sleep around 5:30-6:00 (when we wake up at 6:30-7 for school).

 

Pre-PANDAS and while he was on abx we had no problems with sleep at all, if he woke up, he'd put himself back to sleep no problem.

[nicklemama]

Pre-PANDAS and while he was on abx we had no problems with sleep at all, if he woke up, he'd put himself back to sleep no problem

 

Boy, what I'd give to go back to those days, as I'm sure everyone would! My DS was such a good sleeper.

[ilovedogs]

My ds isn't PANDA's but was a good sleeper until just this past year or so. Once he's asleep he sleeps straight through the night without any issues. It's the falling asleep that we have trouble with. I just wish he was tired at 10 PM like he used to be. And, I keep him quite active during the day with tennis, running, cleaning house, running errands, etc. I'm exhausted at the end of the day so I have no idea why he's wired and ready to stay up, LOL!

 

We'll see how he does tonight since he got a good night's sleep last night. I also wish he'd sleep with his door closed so my dh and I could have more privacy.

[GraceUnderPressure]

Eating too close to bedtime - esp. sugary stuff is DEF a factor! Your mom's instinct is right on that one! It's recommended that you have ~3 hr gap between dinner and bedtime - dinner should include a modest amount of complex carbs to help contribute to sleepiness.

 

I had my 18yo (142lbs) up to 9mg of time released melatonin last year when things got bad. It worked for a while but then he exacerbated further and everything was a struggle. I finally dropped it. We've finally had some improvement with our recent efforts. Re-started it to help with adjusting to daylight savings time and 1 tablet (3mg TR) actually caused him to fall asleep in his chair!

 

Seems pretty likely that there's a tolerance effect involved to some extent - maybe give your ds a melatonin "holiday" on a Friday nite or a nite when it's less likely to cause problems. I've heard good things about the herbal combo products, too (valerian, etc).

[Dedee]

On this same subject; has anyone had problems with adverse reactions from melatonin? We use melatonin for both of my sons with they have problems sleeping. Until recently we haven't been able to use it for my daughter because she wouldn't take the medicine. Then I found melatonin drops that I can mix in her drink or food and she can't taste it. We have used it three times during the last two or three weeks and each time she has had a horrible rage that lasted nearly an hour after taking it. I only gave around 1mg which is less than I give my sons. The first couple of times I thought it may have been a coincidence but after last night I felt sure there was a connection. I'm pretty sure I won't try it again although I was so excited because it was so easy to disguise in her drink or food. It works really well for my sons. I wondered if anyone else had similiar experience?

 

Dedee

[ilovedogs]

Well, not sure what time he fell asleep last night. I didn't give any melatonin or benadryl, just a 1/2 cup of sleepytime tea at around 11:30 or so. I didn't hear from him the rest of the night so I'm hoping that the tea helped him sleep. I know that the tea makes my eyelids droopy and puts me in a relaxed state so maybe it helped him, too? He has a doc appointment tomorrow so I'm hoping to get some insight from him.