Auto-immune response due to gut permeability

[T_Mom]

Fascinating article--

 

Dr Fasano, University of MD, whose research is on the immune response in Celiac.

 

His research focuses on intestinal permeability and how it affects auto immune disorders.

Gluten intolerance basically--which then "sparks" off auto-immune reactions.

T-cells, etc. affected....article from Scientific American.

Wondering if this is worth trying for our kids.

 

http://somvweb.som.umaryland.edu/absolutenm/articlefiles/837-Fasano%20Scientific%20American%20article%208.2009.pdf

[Phasmid]

This is really interesting- stuff I have been thinking of for years, since my son had obviously developed many food intolerances during all the PANDAS stuff initially. He had a great deal of gut trouble, but it could have been associated with C. diff. which he had, but we didn't get diagnosed until much later. Anyway, the point is that ANY cause of small intestine inflammation, whether due to infection, gluten intolerance, other food allergy, will cause the tight junctions of the intestinal mucous membrane to become "leaky" and allow potentially antigenic proteins to pass through, when normally they would not, into systemic circulation. Food proteins then are responded to as other antigens, like bacteria, fungi, etc. My son developed really bad motor tics when I have him fish... but only for a short time! When he was recovering on antibiotics, this reaction stopped. I would say it lasted about one or two weeks. Also reacted to parmesan cheese! He has no problem with fish or cheese now.

 

This is interesting and I think this may be an issue in general with kids who suffer with PANDAS!!!

[matis_mom]

Fascinating article--

 

Dr Fasano, University of MD, whose research is on the immune response in Celiac.

 

His research focuses on intestinal permeability and how it affects auto immune disorders.

Gluten intolerance basically--which then "sparks" off auto-immune reactions.

T-cells, etc. affected....article from Scientific American.

Wondering if this is worth trying for our kids.

 

http://somvweb.som.umaryland.edu/absolutenm/articlefiles/837-Fasano%20Scientific%20American%20article%208.2009.pdf

I just find it amazing that he makes so many assumptions about people thousands of years ago having celiac disease, where does he get that??? People in Ancient Times prepared their grains carefully by soaking them, they were always fresh ground, etc. The bread one gets today from the store is well, nothing similar to what ancient poeple ate! So don't get me wrong, I do believe going GF can greatly help those with autoimmune disease, but I do not think wheat and other grains are in and of themselves "the culprit." Until we all get better, I am keeping ds on a strict GFCF diet, and trying to move the whole family toward the same, but I do try to every now and then prepare stuff with properly soaked grains.

A good read on the subject is "Gut and Psycology Syndrome", fascinating...

[Fixit]

are you saying try a gluten vaccine?

 

or diet...

 

caryn on the ts board cured her son of ts with gluten free diet...i think they decided to elimanate corn too,,,,

[T_Mom]

Fixit--I was referring to the diet issue--as discussed in the article.

 

I am familiar with the "leaky gut" paradigm via Edelson and Bernard Rimland's work and the DAN (Defeat Autism Now) protocol for treating kids with autism spectrum disorders (though I do not have a child w/ autism). The DAN protocol resulted from the pooling of doctor expertise and parent report over the past 15+ years.

 

In reading the above referenced article I have that same sense that, "If only..." I could wrap my mind around this there is some connection to our children and this paradigm of Pandas. T cells, anti neuronal antibodies, "leaky gut" (which I always thought was rather soft-science until I read this -- to tell the truth).

 

Could this "leaky gut" phenomena somehow be related to triggering the Pandas autoimmune OCD/ticcing phenomena we are seeing? -- but it is way beyond me.

What of Sue Swedo (in one of those video sessions) saying that her group was studying autism, and hopefully the cause of autism may be determined within the next 5 years ...and as we know she studied Pandas, first. What of the Director of NIH saying last year that NIH research had determined that autism was a "synaptic" disorder? (Testimony on C-Span during a health care hearing.)

 

Thankfully Sue Swedo and other caring doctors continue their work.

 

(--sorry for the ramble, it has been a long couple of months.)

Edited November 17, 2010 by T.Mom

[Suzan]

I'm looking forward to reading this article. Dr Fassano is a great advocate for Celiac and will be coming to the Charlotte Gluten Free Expo next year. I am looking forward to it more than ever now. I wonder if I can corner him and pick his brain about pandas and lyme!

 

Susan

[Familyof5]

Curious what you all think about this.....the article, based on good evidence is saying that celiac, wheat, gluten, whatever it may be, probably is the underlying cause of autoimmune illness. My experience leads me to believe that my gluten sensitivity was caused by the toxic air I was breathing in my home for 10 years.

 

Did the toxic air turn on the gluten intolerance and the other autoimmune disorders I had?

 

Or, was the gluten intolerance the precursor to allowing the toxic mold to cause my other autoimmunities?

 

 

I really don't know what to think, and I know it may seem a bit elementary to ask, but my experience leads me to believe that the toxic mold turned on the autoimmunity, including the intolerance to gluten. After all, the toxic mold was present long before the gluten intolerance. Does anyone else have anything to offer?

[dut]

Hi - what I got from the article wasn't so much that gluten per se causes autoimmune but rather a leaky gut, possibly due to, perhaps genetically, overactive zonulin (or haptoglobulin 2 precursor http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090908/Scientists-solve-the-mystery-of-zonulins-identity.aspx) is the cause or prerequisite of autoimmune. The big molecules get through that shouldn't and set of the aberrant stimulation of the immune system.

 

I thought it interesting that in PANDAS you need the double whammy of autoimmune trigger and BBB breach. Overactive zonulin weakens the tight junctions everywhere. Not just at the gut epithelium but also the BBB, if I'm understanding correctly. Could our kids' predispositions not be to OCD or tics or even to PANDAS but to crappy tight junctions thanks to something like zonulin?

 

In either the original posted article or the one I just linked, Fasano stated that inflammaion arising from all sorts of different factors can influence zonulin levels..stress (perhaps that's where the Leckman et al work looking at psychosocial stress as co-precipitating factor with infection comes into play), illness allergies etc. Familyof5 - perhaps your toxic air somehow upped your inflammation, upped your zonulin and thus created a leaky gut, letting the gluten proteins through and precipitating gluten sensitivity. Perhaps that's why so many kids do well on anti-inflammatory diets?

 

I'll shut up now.. get the feeling I'm flailing around looking for a that single unifying theory to make all of this easy? One answer please and one treatment.. and then she woke up....

Edited November 18, 2010 by dut

[T_Mom]

Yes, Dut--this brings into focus numerous questions (and much flailing) and I agree with you that the question of, "overactive zonulin (or haptoglobulin 2 precursor http://www.news-medi...s-identity.aspx) ...(as) the cause or prerequisite of autoimmune. The big molecules get through that shouldn't and set off the aberrant stimulation of the immune system..." Good question. Could this at least contribute?

 

We have a vested interest in this as my mother in law has a Scandinavian genetic dystonia (she is very affected physically, in a wheelchair) which started around age 25 and has been progressive. She has claimed that gluten free has made a world of difference for her physically, contributed to her going into remission--(25+ years.) Fast forward to 2010, and my two daughters being affected with PANDAS/PITAND dramatically.

 

Could it be that this gluten issue directly affects the avenues for inflammation for our kids?

 

(I am not even going to think about trying GF until after the holidays...

Edited November 18, 2010 by T.Mom

[Stephanie2]

Well I can tell you that when I started my oldest son on GFCF a couple years ago, I did see inflammation go down (and I did not know it at the time, but he had an ACTIVE strep infection, still noticed a difference in behaviors!).

 

You could take the gluten free diet one step further and look into the Specific Carbohydrate Diet. Many ppl with celiac actually do better on this diet (it is also a gluten free diet, but other grains-free too). This is a very anti inflammatory diet and it helps to heal the leaky gut over time.

 

http://www.pecanbread.com/

 

This diet is radical and extreme and requires fanatical compliance to really heal the gut. I have researched it, studied it but not quite ready to take the leap.

 

With my boys' gut issues, I know I need to do it eventually.