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Methylation/histamine


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9 replies to this topic

#1 englanddoc

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Posted 10 December 2006 - 09:34 PM

Hi guys. Ok, some methylation/histamine queries. I just cannot get my head around it. It seems fairly important but am not sure I fit into a neat box as in high histamine/low histamine. I don't know if anyone has read the pfeiffer information relating to this? It basically puts people in a 'box' related to symptoms, blood tests, and gives a range of potentially beneficial, or potentially harmful supplements. You can read at www.nutritional-healing.com.au. It seems very good in theory.

The trouble is I have been trying various supplements and things for the last couple of years and still have not worked out what is good for me or not. I REALLY want to know.

When I started this a couple of years ago I tested mildly positive for pyroluria (which has since been negative). I have tended to relate to the high histamine symptoms described and have also had blood markers to match - very low calcium and magnesium, and high B12/folate. However, my histamine has never been particularly high - it initially read at 75, just above normal but has since been in the 40's. I have also had a raised homocysteine level implying defective methylation somewhere along the line. My zinc levels are low recently. I am still slim, but have no drive/motivation, and cold hands, pointing more to a low histamine subtype. But, I tend to feel worse on folic acid - increasingly nervous pointing toward a high histamine subtype. I am not sure which supplements to take because of this!!

As mentioned it seems not everyone fits into a neat little box. If anyone has any suggestions of how I can resolve this I am all ears!!

Cheers,


#2 orthomolecular

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 11:04 AM

One way you can test your histamine levels is to buy some nicotinic acid (the niacin that causes the flush) in 50 mg. dose. If you have high histamine levels then you will experience a flush from only 50 mg. dose. If it takes 100 mg. to cause you to flush then you have normal (or balanced) histamine levels. If it takes from 150 mg. to 250 mg. dose of niacin to flush then you have low histamine levels.

To do this test you need to take the dose on an empty stomach. Do not try repeating this test for several hours or it may cause a flush from the accumulation of the two doses.

If you think you may have high histamine levels, then you may want to have something on hand to counter that flush. Aspirin, calcium or amylase will help to lower your histamine levels. Usually high histamine types will find the flush uncomfortable. There is nothing wrong with experiencing the flush, so you don't have to counter it if you don't have anything to use. But be aware that you should try this at home and have at least a hour or 1.5 hours to test this so you don't have a red face while out in public.

A lot of people say they can match both low and high symptoms, so it is not always easy to figure out your histamine levels from the symptom list.

Also, if you are a high histamine type then you should avoid folic acid. Some people may say that b vitamins (in a b-complex) will make them more anxious or depressed or just feel weird. This is another important indication that you may be a histadelic. Only histadelics will have a problem with some b vitamins whereas histapenias do not have problems with some nutrients making them feel worse.

William Walsh said that histadelics will feel better if they use SAMe in the beginning. SAMe has advantages over methionine at least in the beginning. But after the first several months you might be better off switching to methionine instead of SAMe because methionine is cheaper. But it is possible that some people do need both SAMe and methionine because their body can't convert the methionine into SAMe for some reason.

Dream recall is usually a good indication if you are still having problems with b6 or pyroluria. Sometimes the form of b6 is important and some people need to supplement the p-5-p form of b6.

Finding a doctor who is experienced in this field is a challenge, but you have good indications that you are either pyroluric or have imbalanced histamine levels, then it might be worth that effort.

#3 seeking

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 02:08 PM

Orthomolecular,

You seem to have a great deal of practical knowledge of the the nutritional issues surrounding histamine imbalance.

I have been through most of the the big online sources (which is how I came upon your posting) but there might be more out there.

Are there any other forums or groups where this in being discussed.

If you know any links that might not immediately turn up in typical searches, could you pass those on to me.

What is the definitive set of systems you use? Whose diet/supplement regimen is the most reliable in your opinion.

Any major ideas, tips or blessings? I am in week one and I am feeling okay. I just learned about this after years of chasing my mood problems in every other direct. I am going to a ND for some tests on Monday. Aside from the niacin test you suggested (which was positive for me) are the any other good indicators or test that you know of?

Thanks,

Seeking



One way you can test your histamine levels is to buy some nicotinic acid (the niacin that causes the flush) in 50 mg. dose. If you have high histamine levels then you will experience a flush from only 50 mg. dose. If it takes 100 mg. to cause you to flush then you have normal (or balanced) histamine levels. If it takes from 150 mg. to 250 mg. dose of niacin to flush then you have low histamine levels.

To do this test you need to take the dose on an empty stomach. Do not try repeating this test for several hours or it may cause a flush from the accumulation of the two doses.

If you think you may have high histamine levels, then you may want to have something on hand to counter that flush. Aspirin, calcium or amylase will help to lower your histamine levels. Usually high histamine types will find the flush uncomfortable. There is nothing wrong with experiencing the flush, so you don't have to counter it if you don't have anything to use. But be aware that you should try this at home and have at least a hour or 1.5 hours to test this so you don't have a red face while out in public.

A lot of people say they can match both low and high symptoms, so it is not always easy to figure out your histamine levels from the symptom list.

Also, if you are a high histamine type then you should avoid folic acid. Some people may say that b vitamins (in a b-complex) will make them more anxious or depressed or just feel weird. This is another important indication that you may be a histadelic. Only histadelics will have a problem with some b vitamins whereas histapenias do not have problems with some nutrients making them feel worse.

William Walsh said that histadelics will feel better if they use SAMe in the beginning. SAMe has advantages over methionine at least in the beginning. But after the first several months you might be better off switching to methionine instead of SAMe because methionine is cheaper. But it is possible that some people do need both SAMe and methionine because their body can't convert the methionine into SAMe for some reason.

Dream recall is usually a good indication if you are still having problems with b6 or pyroluria. Sometimes the form of b6 is important and some people need to supplement the p-5-p form of b6.

Finding a doctor who is experienced in this field is a challenge, but you have good indications that you are either pyroluric or have imbalanced histamine levels, then it might be worth that effort.



#4 orthomolecular

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 11:54 AM

Usually if you do a google search for just the term methylation everything that comes up is DNA methylation. So a google search needs to be more refined than just methylation.

I have Craig Cooney's book on methylation, called Methyl Magic. He as a website by that same name. Cooney's book explains about the same nutritional supplements used by the Orthomolecular approach but Cooney does not really explain how to tell if your histamine levels are high or low. Ortho makes the distinction of which supplements are needed for each type, either high or low histamine levels. And, of course, ortho recommends megadoses unlike Cooney's book. But ortho is treating very real imbalances, which Cooney's book could or should not do.

George Watson and Paul Eck are two people who worked independently on the concept of fast oxidizer vs. slow oxidizer. This is about how your mucsles process sugar. These categories seem to correlate to the high and low histamine types, just a different perspective. You might consider researching the fast vs. the slow oxidizers for more information on this way of seeing the differences. This article touches on the distrinction between the oxidizers.

http://www.herbalroo...DF/MTEXTART.pdf

Usually people with high histamine levels can have a fast metobolism and a ravenous appetite. They can learn how to eat foods that are slow digesting so that their diet does not speed up their already fast metabolism anymore than it needs to. The best information for this approach, using diet, might be from the perspective of fast vs. slow oxidizer.

http://lifeextension...com/methyl.html

So understanding about histamine levels can include understanding about methylation which can be a whole complicated topic itself. Then you can also consider the work of George Watson and how he seemed to approach it more from a metabolic point of view.

I found balancing my histamine levels the most intuitive part of my nutritional supplementation. I can feel when my histamine levels drops. Histamine is a ubiquitous chemical in the body that can effect so many different processes. When your histamine levels change from the proper nutritional supplements (or lack of them) you should feel that. So, from my personal experience there isn't that much guess work in balancing your histamine levels. So when it comes to the best brands I don't worry about that because I can always get feedback that the supplements are either working or not. You either feel it working by changing your histmaine levels or not. I have never felt that I had any bad supplements when it came to my histamine levels. Now, I have low histamine levels so I may be the opposite of you, but I think even a high histamine type should get used to recognising when there is a change in your histamine levels taking place in your body. Balancing your histamine levels, I think, can be easy once you learn to recognize the sypmtoms that your body produces when this change occurs.

The one forum that may have a good deal of info is stuck in a doorway.

http://www.stuckinad...org/default.asp

This long article covers a lot of ground, but does touch upon the fast vs. slow oxidizers too.

http://users.mrbean....taldisease.html

I hope that gets you started and may keep you busy for a while. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. This is a area where you can spend a lot of time researching this topic if you are inclined, but you don't have to either. Just understand the basics and try the supplements, and of course work with your doctor. I don't really beleive in any particular brands of nutritional supplements: I buy the basic stuff and find that it works for me. And sometimes I just buy what is available to me locally.

#5 seeking

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 12:44 PM

Orthomolecular,

I was curious about that Niacin test as a way to determine high histamine? Where did you learn about it and what is the basic biochemical reasoning? Is it reliable?

I happen to flush pretty dramatically at 60 mg which is the lowest dose I have. So this indicates what?



Seeking

#6 orthomolecular

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 11:18 AM

A dose of 50 mg. of nicotinic acid causing a flush means you have high histamine levels. (So 60 mg. means the same thing basically.) You can check the list of symptoms for this and see if you can match about 5 of them. It is usually about 5 not all they you are expected to match. Just search for histadelic or high histamine and orthomolecular.

There was a website that explained this test but I can't find it now. If I come across it I will post it later.

You can have your doctor draw blood and test your histamine levels too. I think this is routinely checked with a chem panel test.

A niacin flush is when you mast and basophil cells fill up with histamine. This I think you might confirm with a google search. The blood test mentioned above I think is about checking levels of histamine in your mast cells. Mast cells are I think white blood cells.

#7 seeking

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 01:30 PM

Hi Group,

Does anyone have any first hand experience in reducing allegies and/or
candida for the purpose of improving mood, learning, mental function
etc?

I have just been found to be allergic and/or intolerant to several
foods that I eat pretty regularly. Go figure. After a couple of days of avoiding
the offending foods I am starting to feel somewhat better. The simple logic is
that if you drive down or eliminate the histamine inducers things will improve. All pretty logical. So
far so good.

I have addressed the candida issue for many years but I apparently aggravated it with the use of two antibiotics last spring.

So does anybody have some good news, experience or information in this
area?

Another issue that is pretty disappointing is that the ND found ALL the of supplements I take, except Vitamin C in the form of (calcium ascorbate) to be "intolerable." I was even shown to be intolerant of the SAMe. I have been taking too much or something.

Anyway, does anybody have some ideas in this area.

C.C.

#8 chemar

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 04:34 PM

CC

NOW brand Candida Clear is by far the most effective candida treatment I have found, tho I know many people also like THREELAC

Using caprylate with the NOW Candida Clear is optimum IMHO, in conjunction with a healthy diet that cuts down or out on the sugars, alcohol and high refined carbohydrates that candida thrives on

It should be available at most health stores that stock NOW products...but the least expensive I have found is at www.iherb.com

click here for the Helpful Threads on Tourette/Tics


* Focus on the light at the end of the tunnel.*


#9 seeking

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:06 AM

I have another question for the vast panel of great orthomolecular
minds.

For someone who has high histmine, the consensus is that Folic Acid
is to be avoided. Some add B12 to that list. OK, got it. However it
is quite clear when histamine levels drop - Does one continue to
avoid these two nutrients when one is in a lower histamine state?

Other supplements.

I have seen that Larson suggests DMAE for Histadelia yet other
sources (including Pfeiffer himself, I believe) say that it is
downright harmful. Hmmmm. DMAE is a choline precursor. Why would that
be a thing to avoid? Not quite getting this......

Anyway. I am hoping that someone who has read all of the books on
these matters, and apparently there are several of you, can brief me
on all of what is to be used and what is to be avoided in cases of
high histamine and the attendant mood/learning issues.

Another question while I am on the subject....Some sources say that
methylation over- or under- is genetic. Does anyone know of any proof
of this? It seems somewhat speculative.

Alright, that'll put a few of you to work for a bit....

Thanks,

C

#10 TomHashNL

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 09:46 AM

Hello orthomolecular!

 

I wanted to test my histamine level today and the following happened:

00 min. +50mg Total: 050 mg B3 -> Nothing

15 min. +50mg Total: 100 mg B3 -> After 3 min. Mini flush only at the top of the head, ears red.

25 min. +50mg Total: 150 mg B3 -> After 3 min. Mini flush in my face, red patches on my face.

35 min. +50mg Total: 200 mg B3 -> 5 min. Bigger flush; shoulders, torso and back red with patches.

 

Does this mean that I'm in the normal histamine range 100 mg B3 because of the first mini flush?

Or should a flush be an experience all over your body and I have low histamine?

The examples on internet are red colored like a lobster, which I obviously still wasn't until almost after 200mg.

And I wonder what the patches mean... Didnt even come close to some flushers who turn into red lobsters on the internet. ;)

 

Many thanks in advance!






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